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Old December 4th, 2006   Jim Beard is offline   #65
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Or now that I see Geoff's response, you can ignore my post. Your choice.

Jim
 
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Old December 4th, 2006   holo2 is offline   #66
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I do think that these comments shouldn't be taken so seriously. People have made worse comments. They should just be ignored , quite honestly. I will ignore certain comments and will enjoy JSoA #1 on Wednesday. Thank you very much.
 
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Old December 4th, 2006   BrianT is offline   #67
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What if he's saying he doesn't think Todd should be depowered and a 'regular' non-costumed guy?
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Umm... Todd was depowered and made a "regular" non-costumed guy by Johns and Goyer. Andreyko was the first to write him with powers and his costume back in Manhunter #20 (although it could have been the plan of the 52 writers to restore them, I don't know).
 
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Old December 4th, 2006   marc andreyko is offline   #68
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gang-

since i barely know mr. ross, i cannot claim to know what he meant, BUT geoff is a dear friend of mine and the furthest thing from homophobic. (in fact, he's actually one of the truly nicest people i know). i've chatted with geoff tonight and all is good, so don't hold any of alex's comments against geoff.

as far as what alex may or may not have meant, well, you'll have to ask him.

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Old December 4th, 2006   LouieAussie1973 is offline   #69
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Marc

i am glad to hear thigns are cool.
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   Sean Boyle is offline   #70
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gang-

since i barely know mr. ross, i cannot claim to know what he meant, BUT geoff is a dear friend of mine and the furthest thing from homophobic. (in fact, he's actually one of the truly nicest people i know). i've chatted with geoff tonight and all is good, so don't hold any of alex's comments against geoff.

as far as what alex may or may not have meant, well, you'll have to ask him.

marc
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Marc,

Whatever all this means, you and Manhunter rock in my book!!!
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   Switcherman is offline   #71
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Default Thank goodness for cooler heads---

Thanks to Marc and Geoff for coming in to calm things down.

Between reading this post and the Newsarama post about Damage's b@#ch comment, I think people are reading way too much into things.

Alex Ross has a right to post his opinion. He doesn't have a right to step on the rights of people for the freedom to choose their sexual preference...or as others might say, he can't discriminate against others based on the sexual preference they were born with...

At the same time if DC wants a little profanity in their comics, all the more power to them. We can buy or not buy...but to come on these boards for such trivial matters and blow them up...?? What's that about??

We're all here to enjoy the medium of comics, so I say, let the party begin this Wednesday with Justice Society of America, Volume 2.

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Old December 5th, 2006   E2Brutus is offline   #72
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I would have also been bugged if they had said that Todd was suddenly devout Christian
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Jim, I agree with everything you said except for the quoted portion above. Very early on in Infinity, Inc. Todd was shown to be a member of the Catholic church (he and Jennie-Lynn prayed for Alan when they thought he was dead). So actually showing him as a devout Christian would be a return to his roots.

Again, though, I agree that the worst thing is "change for change's sake", though I don't think Mark has done that in Manhunter.

Alex Ross has been known to spend time chewing on his shoe in the past, and I have no doubt he'll end up doing it in the future. There's a reason that Geoff sticks to the "wait & see" line besides avoiding spoilers: it's so easy to be misinterpreted in text that's it's often better to say nothing at all. Sadly, some folks haven't figured that part out yet.
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   Danjester is offline   #73
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Maybe while being interviewed, taking time out from his Superfriends shrine, AR was referring to Todd's appearance in that awful run of JLoA back in the nineties? :-P The Yazz, oh the Yazz!

Seriously though, bad call Ross. But as many have said, why should we be surprised that he's made a crass, insulting, ill-informed and insensitive comment? It's standard behaviour for him isn't it?
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   Joshua Pantalleresco is offline   #74
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I'm not sure the comments were homophobic or not, but they definitely seemed like a slap in the face to Marc, and that ain't cool. Grow up dude.

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Old December 5th, 2006   Impulse is offline   #75
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I'm not sure the comments were homophobic or not, but they definitely seemed like a slap in the face to Marc, and that ain't cool. Grow up dude.

JP
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Alex Ross growing up would necessitate him accepting that Superfriends was cancelled over two decades ago and that characters can and have been changed by creators other than him. As his body of work and public statements demonstrate, that's never going to happen.
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   Skeletor is offline   #76
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Alex Ross growing up would necessitate him accepting that Superfriends was cancelled over two decades ago and that characters can and have been changed by creators other than him. As his body of work and public statements demonstrate, that's never going to happen.
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BA-ZING!
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   TJLamb0518 is offline   #77
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To be honest, I thought the comments were inapprpriate but not homophobic until I started reading through this thread. I just thought he was referring to the ways the character had been portrayed in the past (he's a hero now he's a psycho, now he's a hero again, now he's trying to take over the world, now he's powerless, now he's a powered hero again) and never really thought about the gay angle (I'm not dismissing this as a possibility of what what he meant; I just never thought about it). To me, his comments seemed more like the current DC policy of making the current creators look spiffy by pooping all over the work of anyone who came before them, ESPECIALLY if they were involved in the works of the Post-CoIE DCU.

That's how I initially took it. But, in retrospect, that makes no real sense because, if he was trashing the whole Obsidian "Am I a hero or villian or world conqueror or reformed hero" thing....he'd be taking issue with Geoff Johns, too. Not trying to speak for him.

So, you guys are probably right and I was too obtuse to notice it.
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   CmdrJBond is offline   #78
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I don't know Alex Ross and sure wouldn't presume to read his mind, but there have been some really terrible stories featuring all of the survivors of Infinity, Inc. since that series went off the radar.

For example, there was the Extreme Justice arc and the Green Lantern/Sentinel miniseries that almost wrecked Henry King, Jr. as a character (and where Obsidian was portrayed as very nearly insane, as well), wildly different interpretations of Jennie-Lynn Hayden (many of which didn't even spell her NAME correctly) and Rick Tyler (there was a lot to like in Peyer's Hourman book, but his treatment of Rick was not, at times, really great), and yes, the horrid Jones stories from the JLA in the 90s that abused both Al Rothstein and Todd Rice. The survivors of II were often treated like cannon fodder (and continue to be, see e.g. The Rann-Thanagar War Special), and that hardly served any of the characters.

I think that Geoff and David Goyer went a long way toward restoring credibility to these characters in JSA, and also have enjoyed Marc's interpretation of Todd over in Manhunter. But let's face it, TPTB at DC have seemingly done their best to sanitize the DCU of these characters (even forcing Keith Champagne to shoehorn the final fate of Lyta and Hector Hall into his JSA arc), so I'll be happy to see the characters used WELL, wherever that might be (hopefully in JSA, Manhunter, AND elsewhere).
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   MattDiCarlo is offline   #79
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Giving the benefit of the doubt, I think there's still a problem, no matter what Alex Ross meant, in the word choice.

"Fun and creative" just doesn't read "oh, we're making Todd mopey and dark and evil again." It just doesn't. It also doesn't read "Oh, we're going to depower him."

And yeah, I wish that bad word wasn't there right from the get go, mainly because I point to Geoff so much to others as someone who doesn't have to fall to profanity and vulgarity as easy outs to get mature ideas across. But it is certainly there to show the current state of Damage's mind, I think, and how far he's fallen and not just to make him sound tough, so there you go. I'm a lot more open to such things when they're character driven and not just used for shock value.
 
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Old December 5th, 2006   Joey Wilson is offline   #80
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Joey, with all respect, I think you may be putting the cart before the horse. Ross's comments are snarky but aren't necessarily homophobic. I think too often there's a rush to claim something like that in cases like these and you may be doing the speaker a disservice until he's given an opportunity to clarify the matter.

When I read it, I see that AR doesn't like the previous direction of the character, not necessarily the particulars of that direction. What if he's saying he doesn't think Todd should be depowered and a 'regular' non-costumed guy? It could be that he doesn't care for a dramatic change in Todd personality, one that wasn't there at the creation of the character, the type of change that many fans are against...which doesn't make every single one of them homophobic.

Take me for example. I dislike the change in Todd yet am not homophobic. Its the 'change-for-change's sake' that bugs me, not the variety or nature of the change. I would have also been bugged if they had said that Todd was suddenly devout Christian or had always like killing small animals for fun. Those would be radical changes and not things that Roy Thomas has designed the character to be.

I think you do a great disservice to everyone involved, especially gays, when you label someone homophobic without a clear statement from the person of such.

My opinion.

Jim
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Thanks for your thoughtful response. I respectfully disagree.

When looking at the Obsidian character, the timeline of who's handled him when and what the development has been, it leaves very little room for Ross's comments to refer to anything but Obsidian's coming out (as another poster pointed out).

Ross did not state that he didn't like Obsidian's direction. He used very specific language, saying the character had been "molested" before moving on to refer to recent developments of Obsidian by using "fun" and "creative" in the pejorative.

And Jim, the difference between your disliking the changes in Obsidian's character and Ross disliking the changes is that you simply state you dislike it as opposed to using the very loaded language discussed above.

I'm not sorry for raising this as an issue. If gay people don't stand up for themselves, no one else is going to. All too often, it's people's impulse to sweep things under the rug. I'd much rather an issue get hashed out. If Ross steps forward and explains himself in a reasonable way and/or accepts accountability for what he said, I'll be happy to eat my words on this issue.

It was incredibly gracious for Geoff Johns and Marc Andreyko to weigh in on this situation and I greatly appreciate it. Here's to both Justice Society and Manhunter this Wednesday!
 
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